JehovahsWitness wrote: The bible does not support the teachings of consciouse survival of any part of a person after their physical body ceases to function.
Interesting post, but the Bible does teach survival after a person dies. Here’s some verses:
Saul summoned the spirit of Samuel with the witch at Endor.
1Sa 28:15
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.
Luk 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=969986#p969986
JehovahsWitness wrote:
It was a vision, an optical illusion, Moses and Elijah were not literally there, it just looked as if they were …
Jesus commands: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.�​—Matthew 17:9.
How are you able to keep up with all the posts you’ve made in the past?!
I don’t disagree that it was a vision, but the apostles must’ve believed in some sort of afterlife otherwise the appearance of Moses and Elijah would make no sense to them. Their response would be more like, “Hey, nice optical illusion Jesus, but we know that Moses and Elijah are both dead dead. They don’t even exist in the spiritual realm!” But, instead, Peter even wanted to make a tabernacle for them.
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=970042#p970042
onewithhim wrote:
otseng wrote: Are you saying when a person dies, the soul is simply a memory of the complete physicial form of the person’s body in the mind of God? If so, what does it mean that God would destroy the soul in hell? That God would no longer remember him and wipe him from his memory?Yes, that is right. When a person is dead and returns eventually to dust, he is remembered by God, even though his body has disintegrated. His “soul,” or, everything about that person, is remembered by God and can bring that person back.
So a person is purely a materialistic body?
How would your concept of a person differ from an atheistic perspective of a person?
In what state would God restore the person? When she had died? When she was a teenager?
When God created man out of dust, he was not just dust. God also had to breathe in him the breath of life.
[Gen 2:7 KJV] 7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=970899#p970899
JehovahsWitness wrote:
otseng wrote:
So to answer the question: So a person is purely a materialistic body? The answer is no, a person is a body (materialistic or spiritual) that is ALIVE ie animated with a lifesource aka the “breath of life ” that comes from God.This breath of life would be a spiritual, non-materialistic component of a person correct?
If so, this is what I would refer to as the soul. What would you refer it to?If we dealt with what people would call things and what they choose to believe there would be no end to options.
For purposes of debate, we need to have agreed upon terms that participants would know exactly what is being referred to. Also, we need to have clarity of positions so people do not misconstrue what we actually believe. If you don’t want to call it a soul, that’s fine, but I don’t want to keep referring it to “the immaterial animated lifesource/breath of life that comes from God”.
Are the words “soul” and “spirit” are synonyms in the bible?
What in connection with humans, does so each mean in scripture?
Does any part of a human (consciousness, thoughts, feelings, memories or sensations) survive their cessation of function of their physical bodies according to the bible?
I don’t make any claims whether soul and spirit are synonymous. I also do not claim that man is either bipartite or tripartite. I would only claim man is at a minimum bipartiate and has a physical component (body) and an immaterial component (soul). Man could be tripartite with a body, soul, and spirit, but it’s not completely relevant to the debate.
I believe the soul can exist when the body is dead. I do not make any claims if the soul is immortal. I’ve already demonstrated in some passages of a spiritual component to man that is separate from the physical component that survives after death.
Saul summoned the spirit of Samuel with the witch at Endor.
1Sa 28:15
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.Moses and Elijah appeared during the transfiguration of Jesus.
Luk 9:30
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
While we’re on the subject of soul and body, here is a verse that indicates humans have two separate components: body and soul.
[Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
When God created man out of dust, he was not just dust. God also had to breathe in him the breath of life.
[Gen 2:7 KJV] 7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Some more verses that indicate some part of the person surviving after death:
[Act 7:59-60 KJV] 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. [2Co 5:8 KJV] 8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. [Luk 23:43 KJV] 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. [Jas 2:26 KJV] 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=970948#p970948
JehovahsWitness wrote:
otseng wrote:
I don’t mind giving some of those definitions. But I did ask you first to present a term for “the immaterial animated lifesource/breath of life that comes from God” in post 196 and post 245 and I do not recall anything presented yet. I’ll gladly present some definitions once we clarify your terminology.Did you miss my explanation here?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v … 967#969967
So, the “the immaterial animated lifesource/breath of life that comes from God” is “spirit”?
When Jesus appeared to the disciples, they thought he was a spirit (that could walk and talk).
[Luk 24:37 KJV] 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.But, Jesus replied a spirit does not have flesh and bones (implying a spirit is immaterial and can exist apart from the body).
[Luk 24:39 KJV] 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=971347#p971347
JehovahsWitness wrote: In short via the correct definition of the word SOUL we arrive at a biblical understanding of the condition of the dead.
Why is your definition of a soul the “correct” one? On what basis do you claim it is the correct one?
JehovahsWitness wrote: So are you you proposing SOUL and SPIRIT are synonyms in scripture ie they describe exactly the same thing(s)?
I’m not saying soul and spirit are synonymns, but their definitions do overlap.
JehovahsWitness wrote:otseng wrote:
I do not believe soul is used exclusively in a material or immaterial sense. It depends on the context.Are ANIMALS ever described as souls in the bible? If so, in what sense are they SOULS ? How does this shed light on the condition of the dead ie what happens to a SOUL when it’s body decomposes and returns to dust?
If you believe soul is defined to only mean the material, then of course all passages that use soul would only refer to a physical body.
[Replying to post 344 by JehovahsWitness]No one is disputing souls can refer to the physical body. But what is in dispute is if it only refers to the physical body or can it also refer to an immaterial body.
In the definitions I presented of psychē, the range of meaning can include something physical or something immaterial. These definitions are from BLB and Wiktionary, which are representative of the common understanding of psychē. If you believe psychē is only a material body, then the burden is on you to explain why commonly accepted definitions are not valid.
JehovahsWitness wrote:otseng wrote:
Some more verses that indicate some part of the person surviving after death: [2Co 5:8 KJV] 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. [Luk 23:43 KJV] 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.I think again you are bringing your confirmation bias to the text. The above verses confirm two things #1) that an individual can die. #2) That that same individual can subsequently be with Christ (who also at some point died). There is not indication how this will come about. ie whether that be from a biblical resurrection or from the individual essentially surviving his own death.
I don’t see how you can say I have confirmation bias when I haven’t even stated my position. I’m just pointing out verses that support a particular position (which is not necessarily the one I hold to).
But, since you mentioned it, why would you not have confirmation bias?
Regarding the thief on the cross, Jesus said “today”. However, Jesus was in the tomb for three days. Was the thief in the tomb with Jesus on that day?
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=971610#p971610