Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 2:48 pm If the scourging didn’t cause bleeding, it weakens the hypovolemic shock hypothesis even further.
The bleeding was also from the crown of thorns and the crucifixion wounds. I believe a significant part of his injuries was from the crown of thorns and this was a major contributing factor in his death. Compared to the scourging, the Bible gives much more detail about the crown of thorns and what happened.
Matt 27:29-30
And then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again.
Mark 15:17-19
They put a purple robe on him, then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on him. And they began to call out to him, “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.
John 19:2-3
The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.
This is more like what his crown of thorns looked like. It was more like a helmet of thorns based on the head blood patterns on the TS.
The passages mention the soldiers took a staff and beat him repeatedly on the head with the crown of thorns on. This would cause the thorns to penetrate the scalp and embed into the skull which would cause bleeding and extreme pain. This led to severe weakening and Jesus falling while carrying the cross (perhaps several times). Ultimately a fall led to his shoulder dislocation and he was then physically unable to carry the cross. Simon was picked out of the crowd and then ordered to carry Jesus’s cross the rest of the way.
More on the crown of thorns:
viewtopic.php?p=1116603#p1116603
Problem #2.
After scourging even with rounded metal endings, carrying the crossbeam to Golgotha—-falling several times along the way—-and then hanging with the back against the upright support would have opened the swelled skin and caused bleeding anyway, which would bring us back to explaining why there aren’t blood patterns where there should be—-or why there are blood patterns where there shouldn’t be.
Carrying the cross wouldn’t have necessarily opened the swelled skin, but we do see evidence of abrasion marks made by carrying the cross.
viewtopic.php?p=1117201#p1117201
We also see bleeding patterns while Jesus was shifting his weight repeatedly on the cross at the feet and hands.
viewtopic.php?p=1125609#p1125609
viewtopic.php?p=1105368#p1105368
“Bible dictionaries and studies on the passion of Christ should remove references to a Roman scourge with pendants or circular weights. This is the product of medieval beliefs, erroneous archaeological identifications, and twentieth century Shroud-related conjectures.[/i]”
As Nicolotti notes, the only scourge artifact he’s been able to find is one with 29 bronze balls. So, he refutes his own claim that flagrums with circular weights do not exist.
Modern archeology is far more cautious. It is extremely difficult to find and identify actual scourges because of the perishable materials. Archaeologists must also take great care in accepting older classifications, especially when the artifact was subject to arbitrary additions and restoration attempts by diggers and private collectors.
The only object I have been able to identify that might be a scourge, from Rome but undated, has a handle and 29 bronze balls strung onto two cords.
And just because there is only one flagrum that we’ve found does not mean other types in the past did not exist. Proposing a flagrum had only 2 balls for each strip instead of 29 balls is not unreasonable.
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1129010#p1129010