Prayer is sufficient when there is no temple

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Tue Oct 03, 2023 8:46 pm It was declared sufficient when they don’t have access to a temple.

I might grant that in the case of a temporary situation that spans decades. But it is another matter when it spans millennia.

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1132661#p1132661

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 10:41 pm Why?

It’s like me getting my car repaired at the dealership. Since it’ll take a day or two to get it fixed, the dealership will lend me a loaner car until it gets fixed. But, if it’s totaled, the dealership is not going to lend me a car to drive for the rest of my life.

Another illustration is if you can’t make a payment on a debt, you can contact the lender and ask for an extension for a week to pay it back and they’ll allow for that. But it cannot be extended indefinitely so that it’ll never be paid.

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1132733#p1132733

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 7:08 pm

An offering is an offering, whether the bull is burned or spoken.

But it can be paid with the bulls of your lips until a new temple is built (the lender will certainly grant whatever is needed if the office you go to for payment is destroyed).

Office might be destroyed, but the payment still needs to be made. Thus the dilemma for the Jews. The only way around this for the Jews is to not take the Torah seriously and discount the entire sacrificial system and say “an offering is an offering”. So, ironically, it is the Christians that takes the Torah more seriously than the Jews.

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1132776#p1132776

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:51 pm Payment is still made, with the bulls of their lips.

Here’s the passage from Hosea:

[Hos 14:2 KJV] 2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Obviously this is poetic language, it is not literally saying lips are bulls. Reading the entire chapter, it is full of poetic and symbolic language. Taking poetic language literally does not make any sense.

Also this is not stating the entire sacrificial system has been annulled. The Torah is the foundation of the Tanakh and the Levitical sacrificial system is detailed in many chapters across these books. And many places where the sacrificial system was instituted was from a direct commandment from God. Hosea is a minor prophet and speaks only in one verse in poetic form about bulls of our lips. To interpret this single passage as nullifying the entire sacrificial system would be a severe twisting of scripture.

At most, the expression “bulls of our lips” would be an idiom. It is symbolic language to communicate another meaning. This is done all the time in the Hebrew language. For example, hand represents strength and authority.

[Psa 110:1 KJV] 1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

We do this all the time in English as well. When I say someone has kicked the bucket, it does not literally mean someone has kicked a bucket, but that he has died.

We see the passage in Hosea is an idiom by how several translations render it:

(2001)
Follow your own [good advice]And then turn back to Jehovah!’Just ask Him to please overlook All of your unrighteous ways So that you can receive what is good And be repaid for the fruit of your lips.

(ABP)
Take after your own words, and return to the lord ! Speak to him! so that you should not receive for your iniquities, and so that you should receive good things , and we will recompense the fruit of our lips.

(ACV)
Take with you words, and return to LORD. Say to him, Take away all iniquity, and accept that which is good. So we will render as bullocks the offering of our lips.

(AFV)
Take with you words, and return to the LORD. Say to Him, “Take away all our iniquity, and receive us graciously, that we may repay with the sacrifices of our lips.

(AGB)
Bring words with you and return to the Lord. Say to him, “Forgive all our wrongdoing and accept us, and we will offer the fruit of our lips as sacrifice

(AGBL)
Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to him, “Forgive all our sin and accept what is good, so we may offer the fruit of our lips.”

(BBE)
Take with you words, and come back to the Lord; say to him, Let there be forgiveness for all wrongdoing, so that we may take what is good, and give in payment the fruit of our lips.

(CEB)
Prepare to speak and return to the LORD; say to the LORD, “Forgive all wickedness; and receive the good. Instead of bulls, let us offer what we can say:

(CEVD)
Return to the LORD and say, “Please forgive our sins. Accept our good sacrifices of praise instead of bulls.

(CJB)
Take words with you, and return to ADONAI; say to him, “Forgive all guilt, and accept what is good; we will pay instead of bulls [[the offerings of]] our lips.

(CSB)
Take words of repentance with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: “Forgive all our iniquity and accept what is good, so that we may repay you with praise from our lips.

(EBR)
Take with you words, and return to Yahweh: say unto him––Wholly, shalt thou take away iniquity, Accept, then, with favour, and we will make good the boldness of our lips!

(ERV)
Think about what you will say, and come back to the Lord. Say to him, “Take away our sin, and accept these words as our sacrifice. We offer you the praise from our lips.

(ESV)
Take with you words and return to the LORD; say to him, “Take away all iniquity; accept what is good, and we will pay with bulls the vows of our lips.

(GNT)
Return to the LORD, and let this prayer be your offering to him: “Forgive all our sins and accept our prayer, and we will praise you as we have promised.

(HCSB)
Take words [of repentance] with you and return to the LORD. Say to Him: “Forgive all [our] sin and accept what is good, so that we may repay You with praise from our lips.

(ISV)
Bring a prepared speech with you as you return to the LORD. Say to him: ‘Take away all our iniquity, and accept what is good. Then we will present the fruit of our lips.

(LEB)
Take words with you, and return to Yahweh. Say to him, “Take away all guilt; accept good, and we will offer the fruit of our lips.

(LXXE)
Take with you words, and turn to the Lord your God: speak to him, that ye may not receive the reward of unrighteousness, but that ye may receive good things: and we will render in return the fruit of our lips.

(NASB)
Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to Him, “Take away all guilt And receive us graciously, So that we may present the fruit of our lips.

(NIV)
Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: “Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips.

(NLT)
Bring your confessions, and return to the LORD. Say to him, “Forgive all our sins and graciously receive us, so that we may offer you our praises.

(NRSV)
Take words with you and return to the LORD; say to him, “Take away all guilt; accept that which is good, and we will offer the fruit of our lips.

(OJB)
Take devarim (words) with you, and turn to Hashem; say unto Him, Take away avon (iniquity), and receive us graciously that we may render the sacrifices of our lips.[]

(UST)
So now, return to Yahweh, and think about how you will confess your sins to him. Say this to him: “Take away all our sins, and accept us; please be kind to us. Please accept us back, so that we may praise you in our words and song.

(YLT)
Take with you words, and turn to Jehovah, Say ye unto Him: ‘Take away all iniquity, and give good, And we do render the fruit of our lips.

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1132817#p1132817

And why is it so important to rebuild the temple if Jews now claim they don’t need the temple and the sacrificial system to atone for their sins?

Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:55 pm I’ve asked that question myself. I guess they would say that the temple is important to their spiritual identity.

It’s not just that. The orthodox Jews want to also reinstitute the sacrificial system.

The generally accepted position among Orthodox Jews is that the full order of the sacrifices will be resumed upon the building of the Temple.[30] This belief is embedded in Orthodox Jewish prayer services. Three times a day, Orthodox Jews recite the Amidah, which contains prayers for the Temple’s restoration and for the resumption of sacrifices, and every day there is a recitation of the order of the day’s sacrifices and the psalms the Levites would have sung that day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1132860#p1132860

And why is it so important to rebuild the temple if Jews now claim they don’t need the temple and the sacrificial system to atone for their sins?

I’ve asked that question myself. I guess they would say that the temple is important to their spiritual identity.

It’s not just that. The orthodox Jews want to also reinstitute the sacrificial system.

The generally accepted position among Orthodox Jews is that the full order of the sacrifices will be resumed upon the building of the Temple.[30] This belief is embedded in Orthodox Jewish prayer services. Three times a day, Orthodox Jews recite the Amidah, which contains prayers for the Temple’s restoration and for the resumption of sacrifices, and every day there is a recitation of the order of the day’s sacrifices and the psalms the Levites would have sung that day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple

https://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1132860#p1132860